DP scoring

[bmclaurin]

Here's the situation: runner on 1st, one out. Batter pops up to the pitcher, who catches it for the 2nd out, then fires to first to catch the runner at 1st off the bag for the 3rd and final out.

How exactly do I score this in K-ForCE? My understanding is that "DP" needs to appear somewhere in the batter's scoring in order to charge him with hitting into a DP. So I initially scored the batter as "1-3 DP" and later changed it to "F1-3 DP" to denote the fact that the pitcher caught a pop fly for the first leg of the DP. I then scored the runner at first simply as "1-3." My thinking was that the batter would be charged with hitting into a DP, the pitcher would be credited with a putout, an assist, and a DP, and the 1st baseman would be credited with a putout and a DP. Everything worked OK with this except for the stats credited to the pitcher. Although the pitcher was correctly credited with a DP in his fielding stats, he got *two* assists and *zero* putouts. If I'm thinking correctly, he should have been credited with *one* assist and *one* putout.

The only way I could get the fielding stats to get credited correctly to both the pitcher and 1st baseman, I had to remove the "DP" from the batter's scoring and put it in the out comment for the runner at first (i.e., batter scored as "F1" and runner at 1st scored as "1-3 DP"). This causes all the fielding stats to work correctly, but the batter is no longer charged with hitting into a DP.

Maybe this is because many statisticians are only concerned with batters who *ground* into double plays. In other words, the fact that the runner at 1st got picked off on the play was not a direct result of the batter's actions, but rather because he got caught out of position.

Or maybe it is simply a limitation of the program? Or perhaps still it is just because I don't know how to score this properly. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Barry

[Stephen Rakonza]

This is a bug in the program. Or more accurately, a feature not yet implemented.

You should score it as 'F1' and score the second out as '1-3 DP'. K-ForCE has captured enough information to determine who was atbat when the DP occurred. I'll look into adding this very soon.

Thanks.
-Stephen

[Stephen Rakonza]

OK, based on my research, a flyout-throw out double play doesn't necessarily get charged as a DP on the batter. Also, a strike 'em out-throw 'em out double play does not get charged to the batter.

So, it's a little more complicated than I previously thought.

I have a handle on how to deal with this. I'll let you know when I have something available.

-Stephen

[bmclaurin]

admin said:

OK, based on my research, a flyout-throw out double play doesn't necessarily get charged as a DP on the batter. Also, a strike 'em out-throw 'em out double play does not get charged to the batter.

Yep...I think this is right. I've thought about it some more since my original post, and I think the DP (batting) stat should generally reserved for batters that *ground* into double plays. Thanks for your help, Stephen.

Barry

[Stephen Rakonza]

Build 71014 is now available. It deals with one scoring hole around double plays: reverse force DP. This is when the first baseman receives a ground ball, touches first base, then throws to 2nd base for the DP.

Download and take a look.

-Stephen

[kentlang]

I just had a DP situation with the iPhone version and tried to recreate it on the demo PC version both did not work well.

Runners on 1st & 2nd with 1 out the Ball grounded to 3rd base he tags the base for the first force and throws to 1st for the second force. This should be a 5-3 DP but there is no option for this? I know it is not a common DP but if you put any potential scenarios in the drop down. When you click the DP option the cursor stays before the DP so you can add the scenario but it only records the out at first? The base runners have to run in that situation.

So after trying several options on the demo PC version I dragged the runner at 2nd to the out circle for the second out and put 5-3 DP which shows up next to the out recorded on the score sheet then went back to the batter and clicked on the DP and entered 5-3 DP there as well for the 3rd out which shows up on the score sheet in much bigger text. I had a much harder time trying to figure this out in a timely fashion on the iPhone version.

With a game moving at a pretty good clip this became an issue to keep up.

[Stephen Rakonza]

The best way to score a 5-3DP is as follows:

- Score the batter out '5-3DP' by clicking/tapping the out circle.
- Tap the out circle again. This will increment the out number.
- Then navigate to the base runner and score the out as '5'.

This can be made much easier. I will put together a 'wizard' that leads you through double and triple plays.

-Stephen

[trueblue]

I have just been introduced to the K-ForCE scoring program, so it's possible that this has already been addressed:

I believe it is essential for the program to differentiate a DP from a GDP. They are both DP's, but one is a separate batting statistic, and is only applied in the situation of a force or reverse force ground ball DP.

OBR 10.02(a)(17) & Comment clearly outline the statistic, and OBR 2.00 - definition of a Double Play - clearly outlines the conditions for a force and reverse force DP.

How does K-ForCE treat this one:

None out, R1 and R3, Hit & Run play is on, Batter hits a grounder to 3B who throws home for 1st out, and C throws to 1B for 2nd out. Scored as 5-2-3 DP but this is not a GDP. K-ForCE should not put a stat against the batter in the DP column (IMHO, this column is mis-labelled).

It seems to me that there should be both a DP and GDP scoring notation in the program.

[seanf]

Jul 2, 2010 18:16:01 GMT -5 trueblue said:

How does K-ForCE treat this one:

None out, R1 and R3, Hit & Run play is on, Batter hits a grounder to 3B who throws home for 1st out, and C throws to 1B for 2nd out. Scored as 5-2-3 DP but this is not a GDP. K-ForCE should not put a stat against the batter in the DP column (IMHO, this column is mis-labelled).

Is this just a hypothetical, or something you actually saw happen? The batter must've been pretty slow getting down the line for the catcher to have time to make a tag on the runner and still throw the batter out at 1st.

[trueblue]

On a hit & run play this is not that far-fetched, and this scenario is just one sample of a ground ball double-play made by infielders that is not a GDP by the rules. The other possible scenario is a runner from 3rd getting tagged off his base on the grounder to 3B fielder, then the throw to 1st completes the DP - no GDP. I've had both occur in games.

The point is that the scoring program is failing to differentiate between DP and GDP according to the OBR, and this is also shown by batting statistics having a column labelled DP rather than GDP. There is not supposed to be any statistical charge against a batter who hits into a DP, it is only when he grounds into a force or reverse force DP.

[Stephen Rakonza]

Right. This issue is fixed in our Pointstreak scoring system and will make it into the retail product soon. The first implementation is as follows:

• Batter out with a "DP" implies "GDP"
  
• Batter out with a "Dp" implies the batter is the first out of a "GDP" (reverse force DP)
  
• Batter out with a "dP" implies the batter is the second out of a DP, but should NOT be charged with a GDP (per some examples given, including a tag out, throw out DP)
  

ALL of these ensure the fielder's are correctly credited with a DP.

In the first version, the app will not prompt for this third scenario. It may be an option in the DP wizard. For now, it requires the scorer manually alter the out comment. If you start scoring it this way now, you'll be ready when the update comes out.