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Assists
May 23, 2008 15:57:14 GMT -5
Post by bmclaurin on May 23, 2008 15:57:14 GMT -5
Situation: runners on 1st (R1) and 2nd (R2), two outs. Ground ball to shortstop, tosses to 2nd but not in time to force R1 at 2nd. Meanwhile, R2 has rounded 3rd and attempts to score. 2nd baseman fires to the plate, and catcher applies tag to get R1 at the plate for the 3rd out.
What's correct defensive scoring? 6-4-2? Or just 4-2? In other words, does the shortstop get an assist, even though he wasn't trying to get R2 on his throw? My gut feel is that he should get an assist, given the fact that mere deflections, other than "ineffective contact," are sufficient grounds upon which to credit assists. In this situation, the shortstop's actions constitute neither ineffective contact nor a misplay. I can't seem to fit this situation into Rule 10.10.
Also, does it matter whether the out results from continuous play? For example, if R2 stopped at 3rd on the play, and the 2nd baseman tossed the ball back to the pitcher, but R2 broke for home upon the toss back to the pitcher, and then the pitcher fires to home for the out. Would that be simply a 1-2 putout (and possibly a caught stealing), or would it be a 6-4-1-2 putout (and presumably not a caught stealing)?
Thanks for the help.
Barry
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Assists
May 30, 2008 14:00:58 GMT -5
Post by rht341 on May 30, 2008 14:00:58 GMT -5
Hello Barry, That's an interesting question! I didn't look at the official scoring rules, but my inclination is to NOT give the shortstop an assist. This is my reasoning: The shortstop directly participated in the play at second, but not in the play at home. In other words, this was not a relay or deflection. What it may boil down to is the discretion of the official scorer. Hope this helps, Rich
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Assists
May 30, 2008 14:44:41 GMT -5
Post by bmclaurin on May 30, 2008 14:44:41 GMT -5
...my inclination is to NOT give the shortstop an assist. This is my reasoning: The shortstop directly participated in the play at second, but not in the play at home. In other words, this was not a relay or deflection. Rich, thanks very much for the reply. Since posting this question, I have read a few things (albeit, nonauthoritative) that have strengthened my inclination to credit the shortstop with an assist in this situation. In his book, "Baseball Scorekeeping: A Practical Guide to the Rules," the author, Andres Wirkmaa, cites the following example of an assist that would be credited under Rule 10.10: Now in this example, you could argue that the right fielder was throwing to the first baseman *as the cutoff man* in an intentional effort to get the runner at home, not in an effort to retire the batter at first. You might further argue that it was the right fielder's *intent* that earns him the assist in this case. But I do not believe that intent enters into the determination of whether or not to award an assist. Consider the example of a screaming line drive that ricochets of the pitcher's leg, which is then picked up by the second baseman, who throws to first for the out. That play would correctly be scored as a 1-4-3 putout, and the 2nd baseman *and* the pitcher would both be credited with an assist, despite the fact that it clearly was not the pitcher's intent to deflect the ball in such a way to allow the 2nd baseman to make the play--it was a complete accident (and measure of good luck). Having said all of that, I believe your point is that, in my original question, there really are two "plays" going on--one at second (which was unsuccessful) and one at the plate (which was successful)--and that the scoring should be separate. I see your point, and it may very well be right, but I'm just not sure. I suppose a related example would be an attempted 6-4-3 double play, whereby the runner is safe at 2nd, but the batter is put out at first. Wouldn't the shortstop still get an assist even though the "play" (using your reasoning) he directly participated in (at 2nd) was unsuccessful, and the play at first was successful? Why is this so complicated? Barry
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Assists
Jul 11, 2008 1:07:25 GMT -5
Post by Stephen Rakonza on Jul 11, 2008 1:07:25 GMT -5
Here's a similar situation that happens in youth league ball. It is the equivilant of your original question.
R1 at 1st, R3 at 3rd. On the pitch R1 takes off for 2nd, C throws to SS covering on the steal attempt, R1 retreats to 1st, SS throws to 1B who makes no attempt to tag R1 and instead throws home, C tags out R3 attempting to score.
Score this as "CS 2-6-3-2" The Catcher gets credit for a Putout but not an assist.
This is just like your failed putout on the force at 2nd. The continuation of the play, however, results in a putout.
Also, R1 then attempts to advance to 2nd, the C throws to the 2B who tags out R1 for a DP.
Score this as "CS 2-6-3-2-4 DP" The Catcher gets credit for only a single Assist. All get credited with a DP.
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Assists
Jul 23, 2008 17:06:30 GMT -5
Post by rht341 on Jul 23, 2008 17:06:30 GMT -5
I see Stephen's reasoning as well. Like i said, maybe it boils down to the opinion of the official scorer? Although i still think (yes, i'm a little stubborn sometimes!) this is not the same as a relay play from the outfield.
Barry, what did you decide?
Rich
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Assists
Jul 2, 2010 17:58:41 GMT -5
Post by trueblue on Jul 2, 2010 17:58:41 GMT -5
Here's a similar situation that happens in youth league ball. It is the equivilant of your original question. R1 at 1st, R3 at 3rd. On the pitch R1 takes off for 2nd, C throws to SS covering on the steal attempt, R1 retreats to 1st, SS throws to 1B who makes no attempt to tag R1 and instead throws home, C tags out R3 attempting to score. Score this as "CS 2-6-3-2" The Catcher gets credit for a Putout but not an assist. Sorry, but the Catcher DOES get an assist in this play. There was no error or misplay to begin a new play, so all of the fielders receive credits. A failed putout is not the same as an error or misplay. Correct, but the reason for the single assist in this scenario is not because of the second throw by the catcher putting him into the play, but rather because you cannot credit more than one assist to any one player in a single play. Sorry - I know this thread is old, but after seeing it I couldn't leave it hanging! Note: Only an appeal play initiated from the pitcher after the previous play has ended will result in the assist being credited to just the pitcher. Ex 1. Batter rounds 1st to get a 2B Hit to RF, 9 throws ball to 4 who then throws back to mound, first baseman calls to pitcher for the ball and when he receives the throw he successfully appeals for a missed base. Batter is out 1-3 on appeal (no hit credited). Ex 2. Batter rounds 1st to get a 2B Hit to RF, 9 throws ball to 4 who then throws ball to 3 (first baseman is screaming for the ball as he knows the runner missed the base). Appeal is successful and batter is out 9-4-3 on appeal (no hit credited). Refer OBR 10.10(a)(1)Comment.
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